Pictured here and referenced in the following interview: X cutouts from Édouard Manet's painting, Olympia (1863), photograph of Bettie Page (1950's) and Gustave Courbet's painting, The Origin of the World (1866). The following is an interview about art and pornography, which represents one round trip email with my friend Odette. I like such an exchange because there is hardly any editing but there often are surprises. Typically, I do not point out these misunderstandings and they usually occur because I do not clearly express myself. Because of the sensitive subject matter, I want to explain that my question below about a nude shot of a deceased model meant to suggest a picture taken of a model during his or her lifetime and viewed posthumously as opposed to the way in which the question was answered, which implies I was speaking of the image of a dead person, which I was not. Either way, I am shockingly amused by it and have left it in.Drew:
We have known each other for a dozen years. We met on your and my wife's class trip to the Metropolitan Museum of Art. After you got your Bachelors in Research Psychology and Philosophy you went on to NYU and got a Masters in Media Ecology and Film Production. You are now a graphic artist/writer/editor and a musician and currently live in London. I was wondering if you had a few minutes to talk about a few subjects you know a lot about and how these influence each other? Those being, pornography, graphic art, fine art and punk rock.
Odette:
Sure! I remember that day that I met you very well — that was the first time I had Ethiopian food and you taught me how to order food “without meat” in Czech just in time for my study abroad trip to Prague!
Drew:
For many years of your career you have worked on the publication side of the porn industry, both in the US and in England. I was wondering if you could shed some light on the industry and explain where it and the arts overlap.
Odette:
I’ve worked at four different adult publishers, in three different job titles, on well over a dozen titles in two countries… yeah, I guess do know a bit about porn publishing by now.
I’ve always thought that art happens when the person making it is trying to express something, and I’d say that’s the rule in porn too. Sometimes it’s pretty straightforward and utilitarian — a naked girl on a bed. But some photographers and directors put quite a lot into the set up, the story, the outfits and makeup. They’re trying to say something to the viewer through the photos or video, whatever that may be. Both take talent. But even with this distinction the line is pretty blurry. What makes anything art, or not art?
Drew:
In terms of the history of art, concerning the male gaze and control of the female body, where do you personally draw the line between art and pornography and isn't that line being constantly pushed back if Manet's Olympia and Courbet's The Origin of the World are simply fine art now?
Odette:
You could say the same about camera club photos from the 50’s. Bettie Page is the big breakout star of that genre but there were hundreds of girls who posed for sexy photos in that era. At the time they were fighting to NOT be labeled as obscene.
While one could argue that those girls were being objectified or exploited, the very fact that they chose to be photographed, to wear sexy outfits and pose for the camera gives the photos an aura of female empowerment, of taking control of the way they are portrayed. That’s pretty much the point of the whole neo-burlesque movement too. “You can look and enjoy because I’m *letting* you look.”
That being said, there is some porn out there that I DO find really offensive and dangerous, like Max Hardcore’s stuff and others who treat the girls like they’re not even real people in their videos. Yes, the girls have chosen to be in these films, but I often read interviews where they later said they’d done them early in their careers and regretted allowing themselves to be borderline abused, that they’d been scared and even cried. Every now and then I interview a porn star who gives me the party line about how much she gets off on being treated that way, but sorry, I just don’t believe it. I don’t see how that’s art, and I wouldn’t even want to call it porn. It’s doesn’t seem like a healthy sexual fantasy being played out, but a destructive, hurtful fantasy where the person being hurt is barely consenting. (Bondage and S&M should be about fantasy, not about actually hurting people.)
Drew:
What does time have to do with it? Is a naked representation of a deceased model less erotic than a comparable figure that is freshly captured? Does pornography offer something that art doesn't...a physical availability/possibility?
Odette:
This is a really weird question to me because anything deceased is pretty taboo in all the porn mags I’ve worked on, as is anything with animals or minors.
But yes, I think that porn often takes nudity a step further than art. This is just my take on it, what I try to get across in my own writing, editing and the photos I choose for my magazines, but I believe that porn is meant to help you get to a place where you’re aroused by reminding you of something that turns you on in real life, whether it’s something you’ve really done or something you just like to fantasize about. That’s why it’s good to have a variety of models. Sometimes at the office we’ll be really taken aback by a photo that’s going into the magazine for one reason or another (the girls is really hairy, or skinny, or fat, or there’s something weird about her nipples, or her clit is huge, etc.) but I always point out that there’s someone out there who dated a girl just like that once and that picture is going to really do it for him!
Drew:
One publication you worked for was Swank, which had a special look to the girls. Can you talk a bit about a standard, consistency and aesthetics of a particular publication and how that is related to aesthetics in painting or sculpture?
Odette:
Each issue is made by real people, an editor and an art director and sometimes more, so it’s going to have a certain voice to it just like any piece of art would. The guy who used to pick the photos for Swank when I worked there definitely had a very distinct vision that didn’t change much between the 70’s and the 90’s. He said that blondes with big boobs always sold magazines, especially in middle America. Truckers get lonely out on the road, and apparently they have a type!
Drew:
How has porn changed in its aesthetics and by new media? For instance, how has our perception changed as the industry moved from studio production with stars to amateur uploads with kids messing around and more immediate access?
Odette:
Digital video and cheaper production definitely spawned a whole slew of new porn genres: gonzo, pro-am (a pro with an amateur), and websites like YouPorn. I think it’s great because it lets that many more people do something creative and sexy and expressive. But there’s also a lot of junk out there now too! There are some companies like Vivid, Adam and Eve, Candida Royalle’s Femme Productions, and Wicked who still make big budget productions with wardrobe and a good script. That kind of film is basically a specialty market now, where it was once the only game in town.
One of the greatest things to come out of the new wave of porn genres is alt porn. It seems to be influenced by music and fashion, where the stars have lots of tattoos, real tits, and there’s a punk rock attitude to the whole thing. Vivid makes a line of alt porn, and Joanna Angel’s Burning Angel videos offer the ultimate in tattooed, cool porn stars. (No, I’m not being paid to say that!) They’re giving porn a really cool, fresh new face.
Thanks to cheaper production, porn is being made in NYC again, which is nice because it does have a totally different look and feel than Southern California porn. More real, grittier. I think the scenarios often seem more realistic too.
Drew:
Porn serves a purpose. It titillates, arouses and fills a physical void in many people's lives. I can see how it can be both dangerous and helpful. By dangerous I mean as a substitute and obstacle to real love and passion and by helpful I mean that it can probably be quite liberating as well. Can it be something else, like a snippet which wakes someone up but does not arouse? Or can its energy be transferred into something else, something non-physical?
Odette:
It’s like with anything else… it’s good for you in moderation! Some people use porn as a substitute for real relationships, or use it so much that it causes problems in a real relationship. But that’s not the fault of porn. That person probably has other issues and chooses porn as their addiction and escape — it could easily be drugs or alcohol or gambling. Everyone uses porn in a different way, but it’s really meant to be enjoyed. It shouldn’t get in the way of other parts of one’s life.
Drew:
This past year I heard an interview between Leonard Lopate and an Englishman about the difference between American and British crossword puzzles. We know the difference in humor, fashion, music etc. between the US and UK but what are the differences in art sensibilities that you've noticed?
Odette:
For one thing, the magazines I used to do in the US are considered “hardcore” here in the UK. You can only get them in licensed sex shops. The magazines I work on here in London are called “top-shelf” magazines, as in, you can walk into almost any newsagent’s and get them, always on the top shelf, above children’s eye level.
The “real wife” genre is very popular here. Women really do send in nude photos — all kinds of women. It’s nice seeing a real-life variety of people in the magazines, and like I said, that one weird photo will be somebody’s dream girl! In the top-selling titles, even the models aren’t glamorous, they’re pretty but they look “get-able”.
One of the magazines I used to do in NYC had a “girl next door” section with photos that regular women had sent in, and once a year we’d publish all those photos together in one magazine. That always sold really well, so I guess people like “real” naked ladies in the States too.
As far as art goes, I’d say it’s pretty much the same as in the US. I frequent museums and art galleries in London and usually get to all the good exhibits around town. Often the shows are on loan from an NYC museum — like last year’s Robert Capa photography exhibit at Barbican, on loan from the ICP.
Personally, I do sense a general air of disdain for anything too new and different in the UK. They’re intrigued but don’t want really to be challenged. Class and traditional roles seem much more important here than they did in NYC, but again, that’s totally my own perception based on my own interactions. There are pockets of people doing amazing things in art, performance, music, but to me these don’t seem as readily accessible as they do in NYC. Part of that is simply because London is so spread out. I’m less likely to travel an hour by bus to see a burlesque show or a band in London than I was to take a 15-minute subway ride to see a show in NYC.
Drew:
In NY you were in a band called Bettie After Midnight. Now, in London, you play bass and sing for The Optic Nerves. Can you talk a bit about the visuals of music. Do you dress a way because it is expected of you or is there something inherent in a certain style that might put you in the right mood for that kind of music or that it might visually complement your music?
Odette:
Honestly, I’ve never really thought about why I dress like I do, I just know what I like and go out of my way to find it. I do sometimes see someone else wearing something and think, Wow, that’s cool, I’m going to try that too. But I don’t copy other people’s looks, I just incorporate the new thing into my own style. I think that when one’s look or wardrobe is self- conscious, it’s fake and it shows. I hate seeing people wear something just because it’s trendy — that’s like listening to top 40. Don’t you have your own opinion?
At the same time, I’m obviously influenced by something because people who like the same music do tend to have a similar style of dress. I can often tell just by looking at someone that we like all the same bands! There are definitely visual cues, symbols or signals that unite people who like similar music. For example, people who are into psychobilly are usually also into old horror movies and the themes used in those movie posters. In making my own artwork for my band, I do draw on these things in order to attract people to gigs, to alert them that they’re likely to enjoy our music if they were initially intrigued by the artwork.
Drew:
I remember your old concert flyers...they had a do it yourself Zine look, with photocopy collage and ransom note text. Now you are doing everything on a Mac, I assume. Do you miss that hands-on feel?... What has been lost to the computer in terms of how you creatively worked before?
Odette:
Yes, I do everything on my Mac now! I do miss the hands-on feel of skillfully cutting out a little drawing with scissors, maneuvering around tiny parts and then trying to get it to stick onto the paper when I’ve got glue all over my fingers too. But it’s so much quicker and easier to use a computer — and it does still require lots of skill. Of course, I’m glad that I learned the old fashioned way because even computer-generated artwork is supposed to mimic that look and feel. That’s what I’m going for, anyway.
Drew:
Thank you for you time.
Odette:
Any time!
We have known each other for a dozen years. We met on your and my wife's class trip to the Metropolitan Museum of Art. After you got your Bachelors in Research Psychology and Philosophy you went on to NYU and got a Masters in Media Ecology and Film Production. You are now a graphic artist/writer/editor and a musician and currently live in London. I was wondering if you had a few minutes to talk about a few subjects you know a lot about and how these influence each other? Those being, pornography, graphic art, fine art and punk rock.
Odette:
Sure! I remember that day that I met you very well — that was the first time I had Ethiopian food and you taught me how to order food “without meat” in Czech just in time for my study abroad trip to Prague!
Drew:
For many years of your career you have worked on the publication side of the porn industry, both in the US and in England. I was wondering if you could shed some light on the industry and explain where it and the arts overlap.
Odette:
I’ve worked at four different adult publishers, in three different job titles, on well over a dozen titles in two countries… yeah, I guess do know a bit about porn publishing by now.
I’ve always thought that art happens when the person making it is trying to express something, and I’d say that’s the rule in porn too. Sometimes it’s pretty straightforward and utilitarian — a naked girl on a bed. But some photographers and directors put quite a lot into the set up, the story, the outfits and makeup. They’re trying to say something to the viewer through the photos or video, whatever that may be. Both take talent. But even with this distinction the line is pretty blurry. What makes anything art, or not art?
Drew:
In terms of the history of art, concerning the male gaze and control of the female body, where do you personally draw the line between art and pornography and isn't that line being constantly pushed back if Manet's Olympia and Courbet's The Origin of the World are simply fine art now?
Odette:
You could say the same about camera club photos from the 50’s. Bettie Page is the big breakout star of that genre but there were hundreds of girls who posed for sexy photos in that era. At the time they were fighting to NOT be labeled as obscene.
While one could argue that those girls were being objectified or exploited, the very fact that they chose to be photographed, to wear sexy outfits and pose for the camera gives the photos an aura of female empowerment, of taking control of the way they are portrayed. That’s pretty much the point of the whole neo-burlesque movement too. “You can look and enjoy because I’m *letting* you look.”
That being said, there is some porn out there that I DO find really offensive and dangerous, like Max Hardcore’s stuff and others who treat the girls like they’re not even real people in their videos. Yes, the girls have chosen to be in these films, but I often read interviews where they later said they’d done them early in their careers and regretted allowing themselves to be borderline abused, that they’d been scared and even cried. Every now and then I interview a porn star who gives me the party line about how much she gets off on being treated that way, but sorry, I just don’t believe it. I don’t see how that’s art, and I wouldn’t even want to call it porn. It’s doesn’t seem like a healthy sexual fantasy being played out, but a destructive, hurtful fantasy where the person being hurt is barely consenting. (Bondage and S&M should be about fantasy, not about actually hurting people.)
Drew:
What does time have to do with it? Is a naked representation of a deceased model less erotic than a comparable figure that is freshly captured? Does pornography offer something that art doesn't...a physical availability/possibility?
Odette:
This is a really weird question to me because anything deceased is pretty taboo in all the porn mags I’ve worked on, as is anything with animals or minors.
But yes, I think that porn often takes nudity a step further than art. This is just my take on it, what I try to get across in my own writing, editing and the photos I choose for my magazines, but I believe that porn is meant to help you get to a place where you’re aroused by reminding you of something that turns you on in real life, whether it’s something you’ve really done or something you just like to fantasize about. That’s why it’s good to have a variety of models. Sometimes at the office we’ll be really taken aback by a photo that’s going into the magazine for one reason or another (the girls is really hairy, or skinny, or fat, or there’s something weird about her nipples, or her clit is huge, etc.) but I always point out that there’s someone out there who dated a girl just like that once and that picture is going to really do it for him!
Drew:
One publication you worked for was Swank, which had a special look to the girls. Can you talk a bit about a standard, consistency and aesthetics of a particular publication and how that is related to aesthetics in painting or sculpture?
Odette:
Each issue is made by real people, an editor and an art director and sometimes more, so it’s going to have a certain voice to it just like any piece of art would. The guy who used to pick the photos for Swank when I worked there definitely had a very distinct vision that didn’t change much between the 70’s and the 90’s. He said that blondes with big boobs always sold magazines, especially in middle America. Truckers get lonely out on the road, and apparently they have a type!
Drew:
How has porn changed in its aesthetics and by new media? For instance, how has our perception changed as the industry moved from studio production with stars to amateur uploads with kids messing around and more immediate access?
Odette:
Digital video and cheaper production definitely spawned a whole slew of new porn genres: gonzo, pro-am (a pro with an amateur), and websites like YouPorn. I think it’s great because it lets that many more people do something creative and sexy and expressive. But there’s also a lot of junk out there now too! There are some companies like Vivid, Adam and Eve, Candida Royalle’s Femme Productions, and Wicked who still make big budget productions with wardrobe and a good script. That kind of film is basically a specialty market now, where it was once the only game in town.
One of the greatest things to come out of the new wave of porn genres is alt porn. It seems to be influenced by music and fashion, where the stars have lots of tattoos, real tits, and there’s a punk rock attitude to the whole thing. Vivid makes a line of alt porn, and Joanna Angel’s Burning Angel videos offer the ultimate in tattooed, cool porn stars. (No, I’m not being paid to say that!) They’re giving porn a really cool, fresh new face.
Thanks to cheaper production, porn is being made in NYC again, which is nice because it does have a totally different look and feel than Southern California porn. More real, grittier. I think the scenarios often seem more realistic too.
Drew:
Porn serves a purpose. It titillates, arouses and fills a physical void in many people's lives. I can see how it can be both dangerous and helpful. By dangerous I mean as a substitute and obstacle to real love and passion and by helpful I mean that it can probably be quite liberating as well. Can it be something else, like a snippet which wakes someone up but does not arouse? Or can its energy be transferred into something else, something non-physical?
Odette:
It’s like with anything else… it’s good for you in moderation! Some people use porn as a substitute for real relationships, or use it so much that it causes problems in a real relationship. But that’s not the fault of porn. That person probably has other issues and chooses porn as their addiction and escape — it could easily be drugs or alcohol or gambling. Everyone uses porn in a different way, but it’s really meant to be enjoyed. It shouldn’t get in the way of other parts of one’s life.
Drew:
This past year I heard an interview between Leonard Lopate and an Englishman about the difference between American and British crossword puzzles. We know the difference in humor, fashion, music etc. between the US and UK but what are the differences in art sensibilities that you've noticed?
Odette:
For one thing, the magazines I used to do in the US are considered “hardcore” here in the UK. You can only get them in licensed sex shops. The magazines I work on here in London are called “top-shelf” magazines, as in, you can walk into almost any newsagent’s and get them, always on the top shelf, above children’s eye level.
The “real wife” genre is very popular here. Women really do send in nude photos — all kinds of women. It’s nice seeing a real-life variety of people in the magazines, and like I said, that one weird photo will be somebody’s dream girl! In the top-selling titles, even the models aren’t glamorous, they’re pretty but they look “get-able”.
One of the magazines I used to do in NYC had a “girl next door” section with photos that regular women had sent in, and once a year we’d publish all those photos together in one magazine. That always sold really well, so I guess people like “real” naked ladies in the States too.
As far as art goes, I’d say it’s pretty much the same as in the US. I frequent museums and art galleries in London and usually get to all the good exhibits around town. Often the shows are on loan from an NYC museum — like last year’s Robert Capa photography exhibit at Barbican, on loan from the ICP.
Personally, I do sense a general air of disdain for anything too new and different in the UK. They’re intrigued but don’t want really to be challenged. Class and traditional roles seem much more important here than they did in NYC, but again, that’s totally my own perception based on my own interactions. There are pockets of people doing amazing things in art, performance, music, but to me these don’t seem as readily accessible as they do in NYC. Part of that is simply because London is so spread out. I’m less likely to travel an hour by bus to see a burlesque show or a band in London than I was to take a 15-minute subway ride to see a show in NYC.
Drew:
In NY you were in a band called Bettie After Midnight. Now, in London, you play bass and sing for The Optic Nerves. Can you talk a bit about the visuals of music. Do you dress a way because it is expected of you or is there something inherent in a certain style that might put you in the right mood for that kind of music or that it might visually complement your music?
Odette:
Honestly, I’ve never really thought about why I dress like I do, I just know what I like and go out of my way to find it. I do sometimes see someone else wearing something and think, Wow, that’s cool, I’m going to try that too. But I don’t copy other people’s looks, I just incorporate the new thing into my own style. I think that when one’s look or wardrobe is self- conscious, it’s fake and it shows. I hate seeing people wear something just because it’s trendy — that’s like listening to top 40. Don’t you have your own opinion?
At the same time, I’m obviously influenced by something because people who like the same music do tend to have a similar style of dress. I can often tell just by looking at someone that we like all the same bands! There are definitely visual cues, symbols or signals that unite people who like similar music. For example, people who are into psychobilly are usually also into old horror movies and the themes used in those movie posters. In making my own artwork for my band, I do draw on these things in order to attract people to gigs, to alert them that they’re likely to enjoy our music if they were initially intrigued by the artwork.
Drew:
I remember your old concert flyers...they had a do it yourself Zine look, with photocopy collage and ransom note text. Now you are doing everything on a Mac, I assume. Do you miss that hands-on feel?... What has been lost to the computer in terms of how you creatively worked before?
Odette:
Yes, I do everything on my Mac now! I do miss the hands-on feel of skillfully cutting out a little drawing with scissors, maneuvering around tiny parts and then trying to get it to stick onto the paper when I’ve got glue all over my fingers too. But it’s so much quicker and easier to use a computer — and it does still require lots of skill. Of course, I’m glad that I learned the old fashioned way because even computer-generated artwork is supposed to mimic that look and feel. That’s what I’m going for, anyway.
Drew:
Thank you for you time.
Odette:
Any time!